Facebook Comments about Race in America
Hải Phú Lê Shannon WayTracy Hansen-Lamont usually i hate facebook comment fights, like no one is getting anywhere and everyone fiercely sticks to their convictions lol, and it’s no different here. BUT i see where you guys are coming from. you’re not coming from a place of ignorance and apathy and just blowing it off like others in these comments, but you clearly have some basis and support for your reasoning. honestly, id much prefer that than others here who dont care a lick if black men are dying or if large groups of people are believing a lie. you believe that the BLM movement is propaganda and race-baiting aka everyone is believing a lie, following it like sheep. and to see that many people believe a lie and fight for it so ferociously is frustrating. like yes you guys are insulting other commenters (like they’ve insulted you), but i can tell you care enough for them to try to explain your position and possibly change their minds. i personally support the BLM movement but i can see the rationale behind your arguments. i have some responses but they aren’t solid. im someone who believes the truth should be king, no matter my current stance, so i’ll look into what you guys are saying and make my decisions from then on. if the BLM movement holds its ground then i’ll continue to support it. if not, then i’ll stop supporting it. but also who am i and why would you care what i do lol. this is more for people who reached the bottom of this comment thread. i know it’s easy to dismiss everything the other side said, no matter which side you’re on, but some debates are worth looking into. if the BLM movement is right and racism exists and is perpetuated against a class of people, then we should care what we believe. same goes if the movement is race-baiting and causing nation-wide havoc, because propaganda can be a dangerous political tool. we should be able to have productive conversations without resorting to elementary-school name calling. there’s no “them” and “us,” so lets try to be patient and listen to each other so we can reach solid conclusions together. ok that’s it, everyone love n respect one another and have a good day
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Frina Redoloza no denying racism exists, ive been racially abused by both white Australians and indigenous Australians. And honestly probably slightly more by white Australians. But the abuse white Australians receive from the indigenous is insane. I used to be like these other ppl and put my race (and other minorities) above everything. But facts and statistics don't lie. Are black men being hunted like cops like blm suggests? Absolutely not. Are there bad cops? Sure.
If blm is important, which it should be...
Then why arent they out the stopping gang violence. 3000 black men murdered by other blacks. Are they not important? Why encourage rioting and looting when all that does is bring your property value down, and forces businesses to rethink abt opening there. If blm is so important then why are we praising career criminals like GF and not people like madam cj walker.
Look into things such as crime rates commited by race, number of police deaths while on duty. Its not hard to see that yeah maybe some these cops are bad but also some of these cops are probably hard because experience has taught them to be so.
And yes blm is race-baiting.
Look how divisive everything is atm.
Why cant we just see it all as individuals.
White ppl die under shit circumstances with police too. Look at the case individually and at the person individually.
The whole black opression, white privilege theme is so divisive and wrong.
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hey, thanks for entering into civil conversation with me it’s a relief that i can talk like this with you without having to go through insult gymnastics.
anyway, to set up my background, ive had limited personal experience with racism having grown up in an asian american community so i only learned about it recently through college classes. i certainly dont know enough about what’s happening in australia to have an intelligent conversation about it, im sorry what ive been taught about american history and current events however is that theres a difference between racism and prejudice. prejudice is when you have a preconceived notion of a race of people and that affects how you treat them, whether that’s subconsciously or consciously, overtly or covertly. and racism is prejudice but now prejudice is supported by power and systems of government. now thats just what ive learned so far and honestly it’s a bit of a blur it’s hard to recall everything i learned in college and ive been trying to refresh my memory. to apply it to this situation though, say a police officer shoots/abuses a white person and the police officer receives the consequences. and now a police officer shoots/abuses a black person and the officer gets away with the consequences. apparently there are police officers who have done so and were just moved to another department where he or she continued to abuse black people while in uniform. isn’t it fair that this officer is punished under law? but his superiors try to sweep his deeds under the rug. so now what we’re trying to implement is a system that records what police have done and this records follow them to new departments so even if the officer gets away with it in his previous job, he or she must deal with the consequences in future departments. another issue is in the court of law, the police sometimes withholds footage or crucial evidence that shows brutality. the court would sometimes allow them to. or in america’s court system, every person gets representation, a lawyer, right? including the victim of the police brutality. but what happens a lot is the victim is poor and cant afford their own lawyer. so the lawyer they are given sees it as another job. most cases dont even reach the court room. theyre settled with money. the lawyers on both sides talk and decide how much money this cop can get away with. and these lawyers probably know the cops more than they know the victim. they’ll say “hey come on the cop did a mistake, if we convict him, he can lose his job you know. hes got a wife and a kid.” so they do their own justice, agree on an amount to settle with, and the cop goes free and the victim suffers a lack of justice. so there are a lot of systemic layers here. i totally agree with you that there are bad cops, bad individuals, and the whole police force is not bad, quite the contrary, but what happens when those bad cops are allowed to do as they please? it assures other cops that they can do the same since they know they too can get away with it. so our call to action is to set in place systemic defenses. something so that cops cant get away with police brutality, especially those against black folk. you can take what i said and decide what you want to believe about it.
(cont) i dont quite understand what you mean by being hunted but i dont think cops are really grabbing pitchforks and guns and hunting down black men. but like you i believe that there are some cops who do consciously and overtly decide to use their power and intentionally go after black men because of their racist beliefs. before talking about blm, id like to say that it started out as a large group with no clear leadership. there are many different groups of people who believe different things and claim it in the name of blm. and honestly, it’s hard to say which one is the “true” blm. what ive resolved to do is support the blm that i believe is doing productive and justified work in the community. you mentioned black men murdering other black men and 100000% that is so important. gang violence impacts black communities to the core where young black boys are pressured to join the gangs of their siblings and friends. the schools in their neighborhoods are either too poor to hire teachers who care enough to teach in a dangerous neighborhood or to buy the necessary books or they just dont care or ignore the gang violence in their community or most likely all of the above. so when you talk about gang violence and black on black murders, i believe that it’s because of the difficult environments they were raised in that pressure them in ways we cant even imagine to perpetuate the existence of gangs. its like a gruesome cycle that builds and builds on itself. SO thats a long way of saying that a large part of blm and blm funds go into helping repair a broken and violent community. putting money into schools and housing. getting people, kids, off the streets and giving them role models and resources. the BLM i support seeks to defund our police force. based on their research, they’ve seen how so much money is pooled into our police resources, like are we fighting a war? what is happening lol. so they want to defund and redirect that money into the communities that really need them right now.
i have friends who would disagree with me here but i also dont condone looting businesses. i heard of stories and have family friends whose stores were looted and they were forced to close down. these are asian immigrant parents much like my own who left their country into this strange land and sacrificed much and now they face an uncertain, scary future. the argument that i’ve heard from others who support looting is that “black men and women built this country and they have the right to take it down.” whether they have a right or not to take it down, they should not. it’s not about preserving the image of BLM or some other skin-deep reason, but they should not because they are hurting the people who are helping them. my friend in ktown in california tells me that looters have been attacking small businesses. they graffitied and otherwise vandalized stores or institutions that have been actively helping and protesting for them. i think that group mentality and the hype of the rallies is part of the reason for this but i also think that for some, it’s because of pain and frustration. my friend in college lives in a dangerous part of chicago where there are a lot of shootings and also a lot of instances of police brutality that the media doesnt care about or see because of how often it is and how “unimportant” the community is. my friend and those who have lived through that racism are tired of the systemic barriers that i talked about earlier. and death after death, name after name forgotten, the death of GF was a catalyst that resulted in that first molotov thrown. now the rioting is where it gets a little gray area and for me its hard to express why i dont necessarily disagree with them for it. like i understand the pain that theyve went through for decades and their frustration. its like if some guy steps on an ant hill and gets angry that the ants are biting him without recognizing that his actions destroyed their home and livelihood. this isnt an excuse so say yay let’s riot! but i want to keep my mouth shut where i havent lived their stories and cant feel their pain. when it comes to destroying small businesses, ill speak up, but when they attack institutions like empty police cars, i know the institution can bounce back. when they block highways, i know ppl driving on that highway can bounce back. they’ll be okay. but these actions are so that desperate cries can be heard. it seems to have worked because the looting and rioting have slowed down and now the number of people peacefully marching on the streets have grown and media outlets have taken notice. yeah im kinda confused on how to word it exactly, but thats my take on rioting and looting 🤷🏽♀️
(cont) i also agree with you in some part with GF vs madam cj walker. honestly i felt a wave of guilt for not knowing walker and googled her. it’s true that the media only highlights dramatic stories like that of GF. and not to be insensitive to his family, but i believe GF’s brutal death played a huge part in sparking such a huge call to action from the government and from apathetic individuals in general. i wont say that GF is perfect or that anyone is perfect. we all have demons in our lives. but i think that the praising can also be seen as recognizing that he was human and he did not deserve to be crushed to death under an officer of the law’s knee when he was not resisting and for like eight minutes! thats insane. but i also think we need positive black role models like walker to be praised and popularized. we need schools to make black names and asian names and hispanic names and native american names into household names through what we teach in textbooks and classrooms, not just white names. and for those who are out of the academic sphere, we (and i) have a duty to educate ourselves on these people. because of them, i can enjoy luxuries and privileges and yet i dont put credit where it needs to be. so yeah, im down with you on that point.
yeah ive got mixed feelings about where you said “experience has taught them so” bc youre not wrong. like i said above, a lot of the turmoil thats happening is because black and just poor communities in general arent getting the support they need. as a result, you have gang violence. and police in these neighborhoods are well aware of that and are on edge. in their minds, they are connecting race with violence and pull the gun faster than they should. but we cant excuse them for that as much as we understand them. they are hired and paid to protect every individual. so they need to recognize that they have these biases so that when they see a black man and he is obeying the law and he is complying with them, they wont let their biases pull at their guns and swallow them with fear. they have a duty to the people they are sworn to protect, to control themselves in that manner. and on the other hand, we need to support these communities and end gang violence so that the system of racism stops feeding itself. but where officers are not in dangerous communities and havent experienced race-based violence, i have no pity for them. if their preconceived notions of black men from what their parents or friends taught them or from what theyve learned from tv shows or whatnot, if thats whats causing them to pull the gun on a law-abiding black man or woman? then theres a deeper story of racism, a poison that affects the psyche of these white officers and other white people. it doesnt stop at white people either. asians have their share of racism as well, but asians are also perpetuators of racism against black people and against people of darker skin in general. ive heard of a lot of asian parents, mine included, who are highly suspicious of black people when these people are doing nothing to be suspicious about! and some asian countries have their own derogatory terms for black people. theres so much we need to fix worldwide about how people see those of a darker skin color, one that transcends our current discussion on BLM and police brutality. and as sad as it is, im happy that the drama with BLM and the police is causing many people to talk and to start to ask questions about what’s happening.
(cont) so i dont think BLM is race-baiting. i mean some things that individuals do in the name of BLM and racial injustice is extreme. like i forgot who said it in the comments above but some people are using BLM to tell people to pay for tickets or something? i dont know the whole story but i know there are those who take it too far. but i dont think thats reason to invalidate the whole movement. i think that we need to be as loud about what we believe BLM should be and do as those who abuse BLM’s name. i personally hate confrontation bc im a wuss lol, but from listening to my black friends, i cant just stop and do nothing and say its divisive and go on with my life when they continue to struggle. but i do believe that we are at a tumultuous time in history where everyone is at each others necks and are triggered by small things. i do not deny that white ppl die under police brutality either and i think maybe theres a story there with power police are given. if youve heard of the stanford prison experiment, i think that the power that police are given, or lets just say that people are given, can get to their heads. there must be stricter and more educational systems set in place so that police power is checked. i think we need to put this animosity aside and focus our energy on correcting the things that need to be corrected. having humility and recognizing that there are some things we did that really hurt people and communities or that we’ve ignored those communities’ cry for help. i dont think the black oppression white privilege theme came from thin air and i do think there is a truth buried deep down that we need to unpack because ignoring it is irresponsible. and if it is true and still rampant today, then ignoring it allows this pain to build and fester. so im trying my best to get to the truth and channel it into something productive.
anyway that’s my say on the matter and that’s on long paragraph essays on facebook comments LOL not going to try and “change your mind” like others in these comments are doing because no one can change another person’s mind. only that person can change their own mind themselves, decide what they choose to believe based on experience and facts given. but i hope this helps you understand where i and others like me are coming from. im always down to explain further something ive said (we can take it to the dms oooh or keep it here for others to read) and im always down to listen to what you have to say too. i dont know everything obviously but at the same time i dont know nothing, so i think we can put together the puzzle pieces. i think this is important bc tbh im tired of the divisiveness too like this comment thread is a mess lol. i just want to talk and fix what needs to be fixed.
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theres a lot to read and i apologize for skim reading it. It is 2am here and im just back from a night out.
There's no denying there has been injustices done by police officers throughout history. Like with anything you have good apples and bad apples. Some will be racist, some will be straight up dicks.
But to say there is a large issue regarding police brutality towards blacks is a stretch.
I think theres something like 45 million police interactions a year in the U.S. and an overwhelmingly majority of that is positive and without conflict.
So yes police should be punished when wrong but no there is no conspiracy of police to "bring down the black man"
Blm is a scam. Look at where their donation money goes. Its mainly democratic parties and their campaigns.
If they really wanted to help black people... theyd start in the black community - not protesting against the very people who protect them - the police.
Also i just want to add that a lot of people aren't pressured into joining gangs - a lot of the time its glorified.
And schools in the poorer areas actually receive more money - but that money is also used to attract teachers because most teachers do not want to teach in those areas so there needs to be an incentive for them.
Blm is race-baiting...srs question...if they weren't...why do they only publicise white cop on black man injustices? Coz white on white and black on black does not fit their agenda or storyline.
Also defunding the police is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Police need more training. We need to attract more people into the police force to patrol these high crime areas to protect the innocent.
Defunding the police will only result in less police officers and more crime.
Ive forgotten what else youve said but at the end of the day...
Who cares abt what some ignorant calls you based on skin
Do your best, succeed and thatll be the biggest "fuck you" to them.
Why are we whingeing about oppression and privilege? Are LeBron's children less privileged than you coz theyre black?
Its ridiculous.
Take care of your own life, make the best choices you can, and the racism you face every now and then will be insignificant.
If you want to talk more then feel free to dm me
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Lol it’s okay, please get some sleep. As much as i appreciate our convo, i can wait a few hours for a reply haha. Im going to keep it in the comments just in case someone reads this far and is interested in our conversation. Tbh, you don’t have to read this if you don’t want to since it’s another essay woops, but i do want to leave this out there so that your concerns dont go unanswered.
Okay i have a better picture of where you’re coming from. Your concern about the BLM movement is that they are hyper-focusing on this idea that there is a distinct issue of police brutality particularly towards black people and that it’s been blown out of proportion. That they’ve preached a conspiracy that white police intentionally and on a large-scale target black citizens when in fact the majority of police officers’ contribution to society is beneficial. So i guess the question is do white police target black citizens and is it on a large enough scale to be concerned about, to justify a spotlight on the police force?
To be honest, I have not done research on this question before. I’m going to admit my ignorance. because of my understanding and education on racism, i kind of thought that it just followed that “yeah ofc white officers target black men and women” i made that conclusion without basis. So, this time, i looked into current studies that wont just support what i want to believe, and i found something really interesting: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-06/the-debate-around-police-violence-and-racial-bias Please read it because it’s a good, fair read; the author doesn’t attempt to appease either side of the debate. But for the tl;dr, there is too little statistical data to address police brutality and racial bias! So the answer to the first question is: we don’t know. And so the answer to the second is no at this point in time. I didn’t realize that before and now i feel bad for opening my mouth when i didn’t know much lol. Tbh, im a bit hesitant when people drop statistics like they drop mics and peace out of a conversation as if that statistic is the end-all, be-all of the debate. In truth, statistics can only cover so much. It’s easy to make mistakes in compiling data and interpreting it. And more often than not, they don’t have enough data to say with absolute certainty whether this or that is true. So while i believe statistics can be supplemental knowledge, i prefer looking at history and how it unfolds. Because if we understand how groups of people think and what their interests are, then we can understand how their actions and the results of those actions naturally and logically follow. To understand what I mean, here’s an overview of black history in america: https://www.britannica.com/topic/African-American I think while we’re unsure about the statistics concerning white police brutality against black citizens, I do think that, given black americans’ history, it would make sense why there would be an air of intimidation and fear amongst the black community.
At the same time, i don’t think this is the only thing blm focuses on. Maybe we need to reexamine police brutality based on racial bias. Honestly, i still need to do more research on that. I understand you skimmed my replies, but I’d like to point out that many do want to start in black communities. Here’s a great group of people nationwide who have compiled ways to help black communities and you’ll notice how they don’t go into political campaign funds: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fpdRY5fwoyt04Il6y9bToWjv4wUaIoMAQERoE2A140U/edit#gid=1391133381
Also, i don’t think the matter stops at when a white police officer pulls a gun or abuses a black citizen, but whether these officers are disciplined after. That’s my main concern. When a police officer abuses their power, will they be held accountable for their actions? From the superiors? In the court room? This article is from a former cop: https://www.gq.com/story/a-former-cop-explains-how-the-police-get-away-with-killing-people Again, read through it, because i think it gives a good perspective about police procedures and what happens if they do accidentally (or intentionally) hurt or kill someone. For a tl;dr, I think two of the quotes the author highlighted are pretty good. “I would say that on a personal level, cops are more hesitant to shoot a black person than a white person because they’re aware of the scrutiny and infamy it invites. I know that sounds crazy, but that’s what I’ve heard cops talk about." But also, "officers know more about hundreds of confusing laws that you don’t know about, and it gives them the ability to reverse-engineer them to justify the virtually unlimited force and violence you see today. They can almost guarantee a suspect’s non-compliance." That gives a lot of context for me personally. But the former cop they interviewed also recognized an intersectionality of sorts. Like yes there are black people, but they are not black alone. Their lives are also impacted by their socioeconomic status. He talks about how the war on drugs provides a reasonable basis for why black americans have higher crime rates and why they fear cops. You mentioned LeBron’s children and how they are not more privileged than others and that can be true. But we can’t look at some people and believe that as the greater narrative for the rest of that people. I know I said the spiel about statistics, but if they’re used carefully, i think they can be helpful. Here’s a series of studies and their results about how poverty and ethnic and racial minorities relate to one another: https://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/minorities. It’s not just about skin color but the history of the people with a certain skin color explains why they are of a lower SES and why they are treated certain ways and have less opportunities and why they require help in order to be on the same footing as the Americans (white) who already had years to build themselves up and who also spent a considerable number of years oppressing black americans. You said that schools in poorer neighborhoods do receive funds that go into teachers and I’m not saying that there are no schools like that. What im concerned with is do these schools have enough money and enough support to reinvigorate a neighborhood struggling from generational poverty and gang violence by educating the children? And what about the schools that still exist that do not receive funds? We’re on the same page here, but I think there’s just a gap in our conversation that connects our two beliefs.
I understand what you’re saying that many times gangs are glorified by their communities and i don’t deny that. But what happens when a kid in that neighborhood doesn’t want to join the gang? They’ve had siblings, cousins, and friends who were shot and killed due to gang violence, and they’re afraid that their lives would end too. They don’t want to join, but do they have a choice? This is an overview on how peer pressure operates and how it can lead to criminal activity: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e6c3/1daaa258e18bddf07f5728a13b8a889e10eb.pdf. You can skip to “V. How Peer Pressure Operates” and the diagram helps explain this phenomenon.
Concerning defunding police, I can understand how that sounds ridiculous. Police are meant to contain crime so why would defunding help decrease crime? Like i said before, the police are given a hefty wad of cash. I think this article says it better than I could: https://www.forbes.com/sites/monicamelton/2020/06/08/why-the-aclu-black-lives-matter-and-others-want-to-defund-the-police-while-this-weapons-supplier-disagrees/#56fb03162f92 I think this excerpt sums it up well: “While the slogan sounds simple, “Defunding the police” isn’t as much about stripping police forces of resources needed to do their jobs and address crime but rather instituting reform and giving communities the support they need in areas that don’t require police involvement. Funds that would have paid officers salaries, which are 97% of police department expenditures, would be used to pay for community interventions for situations that don’t warrant a police presence.” You can see how much we are decreasing their funds. From $1.8 billion to $1.6 billion was one of them. I don’t think this is unreasonable and i dont think that police departments will struggle with such a decrease.
“Do your best, succeed and thatll be the biggest "fuck you" to them.” Amen, sister. But also I grew up in a pretty privileged situation. I never understood the struggles that many of my low SES, minority peers faced growing up and still do face. When i met those who did have those stories and connected with them in person, i realized that it’s not just them who experience these struggles but their families, their neighbors, other kids in their schools, so on and so forth. I’m saying that yes, while black people and other minorities can succeed and overcome, the question I’m posing is why do they have to overcome? Not the best metaphor, but say we have a swimming pool and one part is particularly slippery. So people fall into the pool and they struggle and swim and get out. Hurray, right, they survived? No. There are people who will slip, fall, not know how to swim, and drown. The appropriate response is to fix the slippery part so that no one falls in anymore. This goes beyond me and my personal experiences of racism. I don’t want to live in the world where we’re okay with people being assholes and getting away with it. I’m not okay living in a country where I’ll just hope that those in poverty and those who are struggling because of the color of their skin will fight their way to the top while i go on in comfort in my own life. I dont think it’s a matter of “oh that’s reality; that’s just how it is.” It’s not like there’s nothing we can do to make change, to make this not a reality but part of the past.
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Frina Redoloza
Statistics dont lie - however limited they may be.
You cant throw a narrative of white police brutality towards black men and then have little statistical data to prove that.
Anyway we're going around in circles somewhat.
Blm want change? Encourage parents to actually parent their kids. Stop their kids from joining gangs, being respectful to people including police, get an education, work hard.
Too many black families have no father figure either due to straight up leaving or incarceration.
You want change? Then change within first.
You talk abt changing the "slippery part"
You change it by educating them. Putting more responsibility on them. How is telling them that "they're screwed coz they're black and the white man hates them and they'll never succeed coz whites will always take precedence over them" going to motivate them to change their lives...
We have a cultural issue here. Not a racial one.
Again i ask
Why are African immigrants on average more successful than there black counterparts.
Who is walking around saying lets keep blacks down but African immigrants are ok.
It doesnt make sense.
This shouldnt be such a large issue thats its become.
But hey you guys have an election this year.
Oh and the last riots happened....4 years ago too.
Its all just race baiting in an attempt to secure black votes.
Take a look at all the shit happening in your country and where - its all democratic states.
Oh...and wasnt Derek Chauvin a registered democrat? Working under a black police chief in a democratic state. And didnt he have a history of police brutality but was ignored by said democraticly elected police chiefs?
Have a listen to people like Brandon Tatum.
Hes a black former police officer.
He'll tell you far more than i can tell you
Goodluck on your research, i hope you see the truth
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Shannon Way i think we’re on the same page with some disagreements. like we both believe in the importance of education and community support to fuel change, and i think it’s good to focus on what we agree on too. reading through your response i was nodding my head honestly lol. i believe i answered some of your concerns in my replies if you look a little deeper. and i think you posed a good question about why african immigrants fair better than their black american counterparts. if you factor in systemic racism then you’ll see that it makes sense since african immigrants didnt grow up in the same systems that black americans do. i hope you can see this as not only skin color but skin color backed by a racially charged and compounding american history. also i dont think that the democratic party is pure and perfect. i find myself rolling my eyes in grief and annoyance at the constant political banter on tv. i also believe that race baiting can be a ploy that some democratic officials use. again, we all have our demons. but i dont think that politicians’ agendas dispute and invalidate history and the reality of current events. if that’s true about Chauvin, then i believe he should be held accountable for his actions. ill look into brandon tatum. i dont want to invalidate his life experience but again, i also dont think one person’s experience is enough to end the debate.
thanks for giving me new information to look into. im glad that youre invested enough to be concerned with american history. i hope our convo was as beneficial for you as it was for me since i learned some things throughout this process ☺️
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